F400 engine rule

Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:37 pm Post subject: F400 engine rule

Just to kick off a thread to ask those that believe that the big bore nelsons- traditionally runnig the Phelan piston/liner mod- as to what basis they use to deem this illegal.

This is not to start a Shite storm, but to ask for rational discussion to the interpretation of the current rules. Below is as quoted from AMPRA website for F400.

5.3.2.2 Engine:
The engine must be of the reciprocating type, be commercially available and have a maximum swept volume of 7.5 cc. The engine must of front induction – side exhaust configuration

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: F400 engine rule

70 views of the above post, and not 1 comment, I guess the rules are not as confusing as some thought. Wink

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: F400 engine rule

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:41 pm Post subject: Re: F400 engine rule

They're only confusing if your from Victoria.

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:23 am Post subject: Re: F400 engine rule

The is no confusion on the rule about the piston and liner change, it is legal with no doubt.
What is a problem though is the "commercially available engine" part. The rules don't seem too clear on this and with the Nelson no longer in production is it still commercially available by our rules?

In USA their rules say if a commercially available engine stops production then it remains legal, but we didn't put that clause in
( unfortunately )

Likle I said in an earlier thread, we have problmes with our rules that need fixing.

Bruce

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: F400 engine rule

one could argue that once commercial available neans always commercially available.
Because the original company doesn't exsist the trade of second hand engines and
replacement parts is continuing on a commercial basis and at the time of
purchase it was commercially available.

Antique shops are concidered commercial enterprises for the likes
of silver goods, china, furniture etc.

There is a market for a replacement engine which will be filled sooner or later
and the new engine WILL blow the Nelson engines away.

Bruce the rule change you suggest would fix this problem but it probably be
reduntant by the time it gets passed.

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:37 am Post subject: Re: F400 engine rule

Good point neil! I am sure most would agree with you on this.
Bruce

Joined: Jan 08, 2010 Posts: 20 Status: **Offline**

Can someone tell me where I can buy a new Nelson or Jett big bore engine with tax invoice and for what price.
I have contacted both Shadel and Jett and they advise that they do not produce such an engine.

I dont want the to buy a 40 then have to buy after market bits to make it a big bore. I want a new big bore engine ready to go.
So who is advertising and selling the big bore engines as I have no idea where to get them.

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:53 am Post subject: Re: F400 engine rule

Just sold the last one I had a few weeks ago, sorry! So it is back to buying a commercial engine and then doing the modifications either by your own workmanship or by buying some parts from Ranji.
In the best interest of the event I feel it should change to a 40 but that is not what the rules say and no one bothered to put a proposal in to the last rules change cycle, so I guess if no one suggested a change then most were happy with the rules.
Bruce

Joined: Jan 08, 2010 Posts: 20 Status: **Offline**

Thanks for that Bruce,

I would still like to know where I can buy a big bore jett or nelson ready to run.

If I cant buy an engine ready to run then the big bore engines are not commercially available.

If you want to quote sections of the US qm rules in regards to defining what is commercially available then quote the lot not just the bit about once commercially available always commercially available...here is the US rules regarding commercially available - "Commercially available: An engine or part (parts include any item used for competing in the specific event, for example a propeller is a part) is commercially available if:
a. An identical engine or part can be obtained within 14 days by any consumer at a price that is independent of who the consumer is; and
b. If an engine or part was once legal it is always legal, with one exception. The exception is if this engine or part is specifically made illegal by another rule; and
c. The manufacturer or other source has given the notice required by subsection 6 of this section, Availability of Engines and parts, and received a letter of approval from the chairman of the RC Racing Contest Board; and:
d. The following information is disseminated by means of a catalog, an advertisement in a regular AMA or reasonably calculated to bring it to the attention of RC pylon racing contestants:
1) Catalog number or other specific identification;
2) Price; and
3) Name and telephone number of the manufacturer or other source.
Engine: A two-stroke cycle, glow ignition, reciprocating-piston internal combustion engine. For purposes of events requiring stock or commercially available engines and parts, the “engine” is defined as the complete unit, ready to run, needing only propeller, fuel, and starting voltage; except that the following parts may be substituted for the original parts and may come from any source:
Backplate mount
Bearings
Gaskets
Glow plug
Head and crankcase bolts
Propeller nut
Propeller washer
Remote needle valve assembly
Shutoff mechanism

As our rules state "the engine" must be commercially available so unless I can I can buy a big bore engine ready to run then it does not meet the Australian rules.

Joined: Jan 08, 2010 Posts: 20 Status: **Offline**

If I can buy a big bore engine from Ranjit at a price that is similar to the 40's and receive a receipt for payment then I would have no issue with the legailty of the engine as it would meet the requirements of the rules but as I understand it F400 originated in Vic and at the time of writing the rules some of the guys could not afford the expense of Nelsons and wanted to run their sport 46's until they could afford the specific pylon engines. The rules were therefore written with the INTENT that anything over 40 size be sport type engines to encourage participation in the new class.

So go and blame the Vics if you want but they were only trying to do the right thing at the time.

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: F400 engine rule

I can see where someone can see that in the rules... but our rules are not the US rules...

I did not purchase my Nelson Long Stroke with a Big Bore Kit... I purchased it as a standard Nelson .40 engine...
That makes the engine I purchased perfectly legal...
The Australian F400 rules do not say that the engine can't be modified and also states that the engine size limit is 7.5cc (.45)

Our rules are quite sparse on what you can and can't do with the engine... because of this it seems that people have differing opinions of what is correct or not...
As it stands I can't see anything that can stop the big bore kits... there is no cost limit on the engines either so like many types of racing if you want to go fast within the given set of rules you can choose wherter to spend the money or not...

Bruce hit the nail on the head that if the rules are to be more specific then there will be opportunity in the future...
And as Neil points out the next generation of engines that may or may not arrive on the scene sooner or later will shuffle people from their current Nelsons to the newer breeds etc...

Also the rule that states the engine has to be comercially available is a problem in itself... I purchased my enging when they were available... so I can argue that it is still legal as it was legal when I did... To stop anyone using any nelson will kill F400 immediately... Not everyone is going to race out and buy a new JETT .40... but with the rules the way they are you can be gauranteed that a big bore kit would show up for that one too...

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: F400 engine rule

I don't think blaming anyone is the answer... but to say the rules weren't thought out as best they could have been is more the issue reguardless of who came up with them...
I remember when the F400 rules were done all those years ago and I do remember the "intent" was to allow the .46 sport engines into the class... Unfortunately "Intent" is not a rule and can only be seen as a guideline that cannot be enforced...

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: F400 engine rule

Do our rules say anything about parts being commercially available?? I know the USA rules are aimed at "non modified" engines where our rules are that any modification is legal! That means I could make my own big bore kit, not sell one to you or anyone else and it is still legal.
If the intent was that anything over a 40 was a sport engine then maybe even just a mention of that in the rules may have been a good idea. We have many people starting the event since they wrote the rules so they can not know any "intent" in the rules if it is not written in any way or form.
Don't see much point discussing this much further as it won't get us anywhere, Any discussion should be aimed at re-writing the rules, presenting them to your state rep., have him circulate them amounst the interested parties to get opinions or improvements, then submit them throught the proper channels to have the "better" set of rules made official. If anyone would like to present me with a re-written set of rules I would be happy to go over then and help get them water tight before they get presented.
Until then we can only use the rules in place and hope the event survives until things are fixed.
Bruce

Joined: Jan 08, 2010 Posts: 20 Status: **Offline**

Well seeing as the big bore advocates are reading the rules as they are written then all nelsons are illegal as they are currently not commercially available now.

Bruce why dont you put forward a re-write of the rules on this forum.

Of course we could all stop running the big bores for the best interest of the class and I would really like to know what satisfaction you bigbore users get from beating a small bore???? must be very rewarding!!!!

Or everyone could buy a big bore kit from Ranjit or Bruce and we could all go 2 0r 3 sec quicker than the small bore for the small price of $200.00 .....makes perfect sense to me!!!!!

Who's the winners out of the big bore 1 or 2 people who line their pockets with our cash!!!!!!